In this episode, we speak to Janneke Parrish, who's one of the co founders of Apple Together, a solidarity union at Apple. Apple fired Parish on the 14th of October 2021. Since she's written an incredible book, continues to be an advisor to Apple together, and is now studying law. We talk about how Apple's culture of silence underlies its aim to surprise and delight the customer, how companies should listen to their workers, and how to be diplomatic and dignified in the face of an institution that is trying to crush you at work.
Janneke is a founder of AppleTogether, and author of “The Tech Worker’s Guide to Unions”. Janneke was one of the leaders of AppleToo, a campaign against harassment and discrimination within the company, and was fired in 2021 for "non-compliance". Since then, Janneke has continued to work as an activist for workers' rights and is now studying law. You can find out more about her professional and creative work at: https://jannekeparrish.com/.
Image Credit: Yutong Liu & Kingston School of Art / Better Images of AI / Talking to AI 2.0 / CC-BY 4.0
READING LIST:
The Tech Worker's Guide to Unions, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tech-Workers-Guide-Unions-ebook/dp/B0CN7D47L9
Should animals, plants, and robots have the same rights as you? https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/4/4/18285986/robot-animal-nature-expanding-moral-circle-peter-singer (recommended by Janneke)
International human rights law in the digital age: perspectives from the UN human rights system, https://www.elgaronline.com/edcollchap/book/9781803921327/chapter15.xml (recommended by Janneke)
Tim Cook faces surprising employee unrest at Apple: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/technology/apple-employee-unrest.html
The real stakes of Apple's battle over remote work: https://www.vox.com/recode/22690190/apple-remote-work-fro
Apple fires employee Janneke Parrish, leader of #AppleToo movement: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/15/apple-janneke-parrish-fired-appletoo
TRANSCRIPT:
KERRY MCINERNEY:
Hi, I'm Dr. Kerry McInerney. Dr. Eleanor Drage and I are the hosts of the Good Robot podcast. Join us as we ask the experts, what is good technology? Is it even possible? And how can feminism help us work towards it? If you want to learn more about today's topic, head over to our website, www.thegoodrobot.co.uk, where we've got a full transcript of the episode and a sample. We love hearing from listeners, so feel free to tweet, email us, and we'd also so appreciate you leaving us a review on the podcast app. Until then sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
In this episode, we speak to Janneke Parrish, who's one of the co founders of Apple Together, a solidarity union at Apple. Apple Fired Parish on the 14th of October 2021. And since she's written an incredible book, continues to be an advisor to Apple together, and is now studying law. We talk about how Apple's culture of silence underlies its aim to surprise and delight the customer, how companies should listen to their workers, and how to be diplomatic and dignified in the face of an institution that is trying to crush you at work. We hope you enjoy the show.
KERRY MCINERNEY:
So thank you so much for joining us. We've really been looking forward to this episode in particular. But for our listeners, can you tell us who you are, what you do, and what brings you to the topic of technology and labor organizing?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me as well. I'm really excited to be here.
My name is Janneke Parrish, pronouns are she, her and I'm one of the founders of what is now one of the largest solidarity unions in the tech industry, Apple Together. It started as a labor movement called #AppleToo back in 2021. And we have since grown to become not just a labor movement within Apple But to become one of the largest solidarity unions in the tech industry and a solidarity union means that we are here to support not only people who traditionally unionize within a particular company, but to be a bit of an umbrella organization and to help all of our colleagues through the Apple infrastructure and the Apple the Apple web, if you like, as well as our colleagues throughout the tech industry to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to organize and to have their voices heard and to be able to be empowered within their workplaces. And so I'm super happy here to talk here today about the power of labor organizing and why it matters in the tech industry.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
We are so excited to have you. I keep saying that my great hope for 2024 is that the labor unions will rise in tech and that people will have a much more direct sense of why all organizations have a politics and why it's useful for everyone to join a labor union. Can you tell us from the perspective maybe of somebody who's in a labor union, what is good technology? Is it even possible and how can feminist organizing help us get there?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Yeah, and I think it's a really fantastic question because I think this idea of good technology it's something that varies quite widely. But for me, one thing that I think is really key and critical to this idea of good technology is humanity.
And that idea that we need to incorporate humanity into what we build. At every level of that supply chain of getting it to the consumer and in what it's ultimately producing. For instance, for us at Apple Together, one thing that we advocate for, obviously, is workers. We want to make sure that the products that Apple builds are those that respect the humanity of the workers, that respect the humanity of the people mining the resources that are needed in the DRC, that are constructing them in China, and that are not Are ultimately working on actually the software and the support with them within the U. S. And within our and within Europe. So for us, that humanity is critical to the idea that what we build is a good thing to bold. However, I think it's also well worth considering what the actual implications of technology are as well, and that also incorporate humanity. For instance, there was a really excellent article written by Sigal Samuel about the ability of law to protect to protect human rights and the limits of law as we currently see it in understanding what the boundaries between technology and law actually are.
And what he argues for is that we need a new conception of human rights that take into consideration the the expansion of technology and what it's capable of. As I see it, he makes some really excellent points, but one thing that the tech industry can do that takes into consideration the expansion of what technology is capable of is keeping in mind the human element at every step.
So that's not just being aware of what the law can do, but also, Keeping in mind that humanity and making sure that whatever we build retains that fundamental idea of rights and retains the fundamental respect for humanity and for who we are as people. And for me, that's what I see labor organizing is doing as well.
We, as labor organizers are here to advocate for workers. We're here to advocate for the humanity of the supply chain, but in so doing, we're also advocating for humanity at every level of technology. We are inherently advocating for good technology. And I think that's something that desperately needs to be respected within the industry.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
I think it's so important to think about technology as a sum of its parts. So thinking about AI metonymically also as the labor processes that go into it. And people forget so often that good technology isn't good unless the supply chain is good, unless lab, labor, laborers are treated fairly. We try to use images in our presentations from a group called Better Images of AI and their images often feature the people who do the data labeling or annotation work because they are also part of the AI pipeline. So yeah, we're, I totally agree with what you're saying.
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Absolutely. And I'm really glad to hear that you use those sourced images and those images that are more respectful of the people actually doing the work.
I think that's something else that as a labor organizer, I've encountered specifically when organizing within the tech industry is that I think there's this image of tech organizing and of the average tech worker as somebody who makes six figures and lives in Silicon Valley and has a big mansion in Silicon Valley.
But the reality is that's not who the tech industry is, and it's not who the tech industry has been for a long time. The tech industry is workers working in digital sweatshops around the world in Nairobi and India and all these places. It's people doing that. that tedious, monotonous work of labeling images.
It's people doing the tedious, monotonous work of listening to audio and labeling it so that so that Siri and all those similar technologies can identify what it is that's being said. It's that constant repetition of actually training these AIs. And I think in that discussion of understanding the tech industry and who workers actually are, we brush over that idea of Tech work is something that isn't always glamorous.
It isn't always well paid. It is something that increasingly is is basically digital sweatshop labor. We therefore dismiss the experience and the value of the workers doing this work in favor of brushing it all under, brushing it all under the rug and painting it all with that brush of the six figure engineer.
KERRY MCINERNEY:
Absolutely. And I think this is particularly important as well when we talk about AI and automation, because I think often people very, reasonably want to know will new innovations and AI and other kinds of sort of machine learning or big data technologies result in my job no longer existing anymore.
This is a severely valid question, but something I'd like to try and flag with people is this idea of AI isn't just going to quote unquote take jobs is going to create a lot of new ones, but are those desirable jobs or are they, as you say, digital sweatshop labor, are they jobs that are actually very dehumanizing or exhausting?
Or, actually don't give this kind of meaningful work to people or conducted under hugely exploitative conditions.
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Absolutely. And I think those conditions are something that's also well worth thinking about. So to cite my own experience here, I started at Apple as a contractor. I was I was hired on as a translator and data analyst.
I was paid 15 an hour which in Austin, texas was not a, it was not a living wage. I had to work a second job in addition. And my day was basically going through and evaluating data from around the world and figuring out if there was any value in it or if there was not any value in it. And that work could be extremely tedious, but in terms of the global scale, 15 an hour to evaluate tedious data could be significantly worse.
Except, What I found was that as this job went on and as as I got hired on full time and as the relationship with that contract agency evolved, the expectations on these contract workers who had no job security, who were not well paid for their skills, were greater and greater, these expectations mounted and mounted to the point where people couldn't, Measure up to what was being expected of them, not for the wages they were being paid. And it caused incredible burnout and incredible stress for these workers. Even though you have this guise that you're working for this major tech company and therefore you must be you must be doing pretty well for yourself.
The reality is that even within developed nations, it's not a good job. And it's the impact that these companies have is not necessarily a positive one. We hear that they're bringing jobs into the community, but as you said, it's always well worth considering, are these jobs worth having? Are these jobs that actually leave the workers better off?
And the reality is that at this point, I can't honestly say that's the case.
KERRY MCINERNEY:
Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And I think it's also really crucial when we think about other specific aspects of the tech industry and thinking about gaming and particular about how certain kinds of labor practices and the crunch period increasingly moving into other spheres of life as well and having really difficult and awful mental and physical impacts on workers.
But I also think that this conversation is really helpful context for why you started a labour union.
So, um, Could you tell us a little bit more about your experiences as a labor organizer, how have you found that, what have been some of the most notable or important things that you have seen or experienced, and what was the company's response like?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Absolutely, yeah. As I said, I'm one of the founders of the solidarity union Apple Together. We started as the AppleTOO movement. And we started around May 2021. And Apple, to give the full story, Apple hired on a director of ad sales who had in the past said, disparate, made disparaging comments about women, about LGBTQ folks.
And Was generally, we thought, not a great fit for Apple culture. We we ended up writing an open letter to Apple leadership saying, Hey, we want to understand why this person was hired. We have our doubts about working for him. Can you provide some clarity? And that vice president ultimately lost his job as a result of that letter.
For a lot of workers, that was a really empowering moment. Apple traditionally has a very quiet culture. We are encouraged as workers to keep to ourselves and to not share what we're working on. And to have a culture of silence that's partly cultivated by the company. It has notoriously strict NDAs that prevent workers from sharing anything really related to their work with the outside world.
It's there to cultivate a surprise and delight culture for the customer so that when Apple announces something, the customer is surprised and delighted by it. But the consequence of that culture is that workers don't communicate internally to them with each other. That changed with COVID when all of us moved online and suddenly had access to each other and each other's experience and the ability to speak to people in other sites.
And so that led to this open letter being written. Once that open letter was successful, we started talking to each other about other issues we were encountering, namely remote work. For in June of 2021, Apple started announcing that it wanted its workers to come back into the office. And so for a lot of us who had thrived under a remote work condition, we rejected, we pushed back. We wanted to say that we were thriving under remote work, that it was better for us. We were doing better quality work. And so we wanted to be able to continue working remotely. We wrote another open letter to Apple leadership and we sent that off. And what we received in response was less encouraging than we wanted it to be. We received in response, a very dismissive video that dismissed a lot of our concerns with regards to remote work. It dismissed our concerns about COVID saying that COVID was declining. And of course, in June of 2021, we all know that winter of 2021 was pretty horrific in terms of COVID.
But it also dismissed the idea that we could do our best work remotely. It re emphasized that Apple is a culture where people work best in person, where the best ideas come from bumping into each other in the hallway and being collaborative. And for somebody like me, who worked on a very global team in a remote site, It was deeply insulting.
It was insulting to hear that the company thought that I couldn't do my best work in the conditions that they had set up for me. It felt like it was dismissive of everything my team had done and could do. And so it propelled a lot of us to continue to to continue to push for remote work. And in the process of doing so, I started receiving messages from around the company from a lot of people like me telling their stories of why remote work mattered so much to them.
There were some like me who worked on teams that were basically already remote and didn't understand why they would have to commute to an office just to spend all day on Zoom calls. But then there were the stories about people in toxic work environments, people who had been sexually harassed, physically abused, retaliated against when they reported these things.
And it painted a picture of an Apple that didn't resemble the Apple that Apple projects, but rather resembled a company that was deeply flawed. Good. And not addressing the flaws within itself and in doing so cultivating an environment that limited what its workers could do and that cultivated this environment of fear.
So I and another of my coworkers Cher Scarlett, we came together with our stories and we started pushing them at Apple leadership saying, Hey, these are the stories that we have been told, please address this. We got no response. And when we got no response we started going public with the stories, obviously with people's permission, we shared the stories that we had been given permission to share, but we started going public and we started telling the stories that workers wanted to have told to the world. We started showing people what the actual Apple experience was. And as might be expected Apple leadership was not pleased.
Both of us started getting pressure to stop. After I spoke with two publications, Vox and the New York Times, I was placed under investigation for leaking company secrets, which I didn't do um, and then after that investigation, I was terminated from the company. When I was terminated from the company, that story went worldwide.
It went international. It made the front pages of every major American news outlet and some in the UK as well. And from that, what had started as a little movement that had a few hundred people involved with it and had a few stories that it was sharing online, exploded into a member, into a membership of over a thousand people, into a group that now is worldwide.
We support labor organizing across across several countries, including the UK, Australia, Sweden, France, Spain. We are here to support these workers. And so what I learned from that is that labor organizing is obviously a group effort, but also that companies don't necessarily understand what it is to actually listen to their workers. After my termination, Apple together grew and thrived into something that is again an international organization today, but it continues to grow and thrive and continues to be an inspiration for workers. Not only within Apple, but across the tech industry, we are in some ways a model for the for others in the tech industry who are seeking to unionize in a large company.
We provide a model and we provide a way to do things that are quite different from the traditional unionization model, but which still provides that support that workers need from a union. And the thing that I've really learned from all this is the power of a single voice to change the course of hundreds of workers careers, and to change the course of a massive company.
As much as I think Apple wouldn't want to admit it, I think Apple Together has had an impact on how Apple does business, and more importantly, how workers are treated within it.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
Can I just say how incredibly diplomatic your first email sounded? As Kerry well knows, I'm often not so diplomatic and mostly, quite emotional.
To maintain your dignity while also coming out a huge company is a great skill. I want to ask you about the relationship between feminism and organizing because Kerry and I are both part of the union here at Cambridge.
And it's often difficult, like the bigger the union the more politics there is within it, the more dissension. And the single voice that you just talked about becomes increasingly difficult to maintain. So there are many different modes of feminist organizing and often there's a lot of friction within it.
And I think for our union that's to do with intersectionality. They're not wildly good at that. And so a lot of their problems are because of this lack of focus on the intersectional experience. Yeah. Could you just tell us a little bit about your relationship to, to feminism or feminist organizing?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Definitely. Yeah. So I'll go back a little bit to the, to what actually got us started on this. So our, for me, it was remote work and for my colleague Cher, it was pay equity. So to provide a little bit more context on the work she was doing She had discovered that there was a bit of a gap between what she was being paid and what her male colleagues were being paid.
It led to a wider survey across Apple of what women and traditionally marginalized peoples were being paid, and we discovered that there was a 12 percent gap between what women were being paid and what men were being paid. And while pay equity is something that is very much within that traditional sphere of feminist organizing, it still provided an impetus, not just for women to recognize that they were being that they were being treated as lesser by the company, but also it provided an impetus for everybody to realize that the ideal that Apple projected of being an equitable and safe workplace for everyone, was not entirely true.
When we started framing this within the context of feminist issues and pay equity, it shined a light on the entirety of how Apple presented itself. And you can find something similar with it throughout the tech industry. So for instance, in my book, I talk a little bit about Code for America and their particular story.
For them, one thing that they found was that when they started looking at the disparity between what men were paid and what women were paid. What they found was not only that there was a disparity, but that women were traditionally put in roles that were lesser paid and were kept there. The same was true of people of color.
They were put into different roles than white people. And so by looking at this from a feminist lens, by looking at this through a feminist perspective, there was an establishment of essentially inequality throughout the organization and the need for a union to actually address that. It provided the impetus for people who were equitably minded and people who were interested in actually upholding the credo that their organization stood for, it provided the impetus for them to realize and actually have a tangible idea of how that credo was not actually being enforced. And again, we find this throughout the tech industry that when viewing things through a feminist lens, it empowers everybody.
KERRY MCINERNEY:
That's really fascinating. And also, I think is really useful as a way of illuminating how labor movements are about work and they're about so much more when they're about how work intersects with and percolates through so many other aspects of our lives, so many kinds of inequality that shapes our lives.
And certainly this question of labor and how it's deeply gendered and racialized in the tech industry in particular is something that I think is coming up in so much feminist work from work on the as you said, the kinds of labor that people do, how much they get remunerated for that labor, and how that labor gets recognized in the future.
And speaking of the future something that we're all really interested in here on this podcast is thinking about the kinds of futures we might have with technology. And I really do believe that unions for all their problems, for all their frustrations, can be a truly transformative force when it comes not only to making people's working conditions better, but for actually changing the kinds of products that get made and the kinds of priorities that a company has.
So I was wondering if you have any advice. experiences from your own union organizing or experiences that you just have heard of like along the grapevine or through connections with other labor organizers where you've seen unions actually manage to shift the direction of a company in some way.
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Yeah, definitely.
So I do want to go back to my answer about good technology and how good technology is inherently human technology that meant that maintains that idea of humanity within it. And to me, that's what a union is doing. It is essentially enforcing that idea that we maintain that view of humanity in our work in our workplaces and in what we build.
One I'm sorry, one idea with one idea with that is. That when we think of unions, we sometimes think of this traditional union and we think of a traditional wall to wall union that has its elections and has its representatives and has a lot of the flaws that you've pointed out about the internal politics and things like that.
But, one amazing thing about the tech industry is that it's very good about innovating, and it's very good at developing something new. And certainly with AppleTogether, that's something we've done, and we've built a union that doesn't look like those traditional unions, that doesn't act like those traditional unions.
Absolutely, we have our, we sometimes have our internal disputes, and we sometimes have our own things to work out internally, but we find that by being a solidarity union rather than a traditional contracted union, It provides us with a lot more with a lot more ability to be flexible in what we do, in what we stand for, and what we're able to take on.
And when we think about products and when we think about things that the, that unions can do to influence technology and to make it good technology, I think it's well worth considering the impact that Tech can have on industrial organizing in the 1st place and labor organizing in the 1st place, where we can flip this question a little bit and say that the mindset of tech is something that can really benefit labor as a whole that what we're doing with Apple Together that what other solidarity unions and what unions like alphabet workers union are doing that they provide a new model for labor organizing and that Apple is all of organizing really benefits from looking at what we're doing and looking at how we can improve workers advocacy and advocating for workers rights in the future using what we've learned from the unions.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
That's so interesting. So tell me specifically, what are the differences then between traditional unions and your union?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Yeah, from a U. S. context, and it's a little bit different if you look at the U. K., the laws are different. I'm more familiar with the U. S. laws, so forgive me, I'm going to be a little American- centric here.
But within the U. S., the way a union works is that it represents a specific body of workers, and that body of workers has to have something in common. They might all work for the same employer, or they might all work in the same location, but there is something about that body of workers that they all have in common, allowing them to form one solid block. That block then then has either an election or is voluntarily recognized by the company, usually an election, after which, if they're successful, they form a contract with the company. That contract then guarantees certain rights and benefits, it guarantees certain protections, and it places some limitations on what the company can do.
However that type of model has a lot of limitations, especially in the tech industry. So for instance, Apple is a company with tens of thousands of workers. You cannot get all these tens of thousands of workers into one room and have them either have something in common or be able to all come to a consensus.
It's not possible. Equally, if you take smaller chunks of Apple, so for instance, if you just took the office I worked in Austin, that office in Austin doesn't necessarily have the clout to actually make any meaningful difference on a company the size of Apple. All it can really do is protect its individual little workers, but That doesn't, in the grand scheme of things, that's not as important.
What a solidarity union like Apple Together does, or what a minority union like Alphabet Workers Union does, is they set aside that idea of a contract, they set aside that idea of a formal recognition or a formal agreement with the company, and use the power that they have just to from their size, and from their ability to speak, to influence the company, or to provide protections to those who choose to reach out to them for protection.
So for instance, one thing that the Alphabet Workers Union does is they do a lot of advocacy on behalf of a Temporary Vendoring Contract, or TVC, workers. And they work with them to either organize their own independent little offices and unions, or if there's an action that Google takes against some of these TVC workers, they provide legal support, and they do a lot of the things that a union does, but outside the bounds of that particular contract and without consideration for whether that person is technically a Google worker.
They. Protect everyone. Similarly, with Apple together, we are able, by virtue of not having a contract, to transcend international boundaries. So again, we work with workers in the UK, we work with workers in Sweden, we work with workers around the world to provide support, to provide guidance on how to form smaller unions if they choose to do so. We provide solidarity funding. We sometimes help organize and promote wildcat strikes and things like that. We provide that support and are not limited by what a contract can do. And so in many ways, we're much more grassroots, we're much more flexible, and we're much more able to support a wide variety of causes, rather than just being limited to what is contractually allowed.
And again, I think in a world where there is a decreasing amount of support for traditional unions, especially from younger generations, like my age and younger, I think having a union that is more flexible in what it can do, and a union that is more that is more flexible in what it can support, is a lot more appealing and provides a fresh perspective and new life into the labor organized movement that makes it more appealing to the people that need to be really involved with it just now.
KERRY MCINERNEY:
Oh, fantastic. Thank you.
And so to end, something that you have gestured towards is the fact that a lot of tech workers right now in the US in particular are not unionized, but that unions can have a huge and important impact. And so we wanted to know what are your hopes going forward for unions in 2024 and into the future?
What kinds of changes would you like to see?
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Yeah, definitely. I first, I think the most obvious one is I would like to see a lot more workers unionized and it's absolutely a choice that each group of workers and each cohort of workers makes for themselves. But for me, personally, I think every worker benefits from a union.
Everybody benefits from having representation and having protection in the workplace and being able to make their voices heard on a company level, one thing I'd really like to see is I'd like to see a shift away from this image of tech workers as being too privileged for unions. I think that at least in the US, unions have a reputation of being very blue collar and very working class organizations when that's not the case. Again, everybody benefits from a union. Everybody benefits from having that representation. I think removing some of those misconceptions about what a union is and what it does would be an amazing first step. I do think a lot of tech workers are already taking those steps for themselves. They are already understanding what unions are.
And I think they're taking those steps towards understanding what their rights are. But what we need is a better understanding of our rights. We need a better understanding of what unions do. And we need more protections that actually allow tech workers to be able to organize without fear that they will lose their jobs or even get blacklisted from the industry.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
Yes, Go join a tech union. And I was so surprised we were at DeepMind last week. And there were workers there who didn't realize that there were tech unions. So we all have to do as much as we can to spread the word. It's crazy that people might not know. And if you're on the fence, So I had, I was never really interested in joining a union then I had a problem over my contract. The university were going to give me two fixed term contracts in a row. And for anyone listening that doesn't know what that means they're just really bad contracts that give you no protections, and not much kind of job security at all. When did I hear about the union? I can't remember, but I was overawed at the idea that you could stand on a picket line with the people whose books you had read, these incredibly intelligent, really brilliant people. And I was like, wow, today they're activists, they're like tiny activists in the rain and raincoats. And there was something so humanizing about seeing the top kind of post colonial scholar at Cambridge in her like red anorak with a sign and you can meet the most unbelievable people as well... I shouldn't say this, but it's just really good networking.
If you need another reason to join you meet incredible people like Janneke. And one of these people helped me with my contract. And it was incredible, because I'm now on a pretty good contract, and I'm so fortunate, and I don't know all the rules, and we work in these really complex institutions that make it, on purpose, really hard for us to know what our rights are, and so it's just like a hub of information, the union.
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Absolutely, and I'm really glad to hear you're on a better contract as well. That's really fantastic and I'm happy for you. That's part of why I wrote my book as well. I wrote the book because I found that when I was starting out as an organizer, I didn't have this information. It's, there's this whole world of nebulous facts and laws and such that are difficult to navigate if it's your first time and you don't really know what you're doing.
So I put together a guide. And I'm, I hope it's helpful to people. I also want to encourage people that if you are interested in organizing a tech union, and don't really know where to start. One thing that I did was I reached out to other tech unions. So I reached out to the alphabet workers union and said, Hey I would love some advice on what to do now. The thing that I found is that this is a community that is very open and welcoming and is extremely supportive of anybody who wants to join it. If you are in a position where you want to start a union, reach out to someone. If nothing else, my inbox is always open and I'm happy to help in any way I can.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
Oh, you're so delightful. Yes, solidarity! Coalitions! We will link to your book on our website. Thank you so much, Janneke, for joining us today.
JANNEKE PARRISH:
Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.
ELEANOR DRAGE:
This episode was made possible thanks to the generosity of Christina Gaw and the Mercator Foundation. It was produced by Eleanor Drage and Kerry McInerney and edited by Eleanor Drage.
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